Have any blind people broken through other than just seeing light? I mean have any blind people seen the Master within?
First time I went to America in 1955, in California, one blind doctor was there - blind - he got Light. This is so. He gives eyes to the blind man. It is very definite in the Bible that that Light is there. You see. It is a matter of inversion; rising above body consciousness. That's all. I initiated more that three dozen blind men at one time. Light is already there. It is just a matter of withdrawing your attention from outside. It appears to be impossible to see light within. Who will believe? You are light. You are a spark of light. Some visualize light. But more people do see of themselves there is light, very definitely as two and two make four. Pity it is there are few who really know this. ln the past, too, there were few. Not hundreds. How many Saints can you count on your fingers: Christ, Buddha, Nanak, Kabir. Very few. Out of thousands and millions and billions of people.
Were all ten of the Sikh Saints genuine Saints?
They had Sikh Saints up to the tenth Guru. After that there are six Gurus. (Ratnagar Rao, Tulsi Sahib, Swami Ji, Jaimal Singh, Sawan Singh, Kirpal Singh). I tell you that Gurudom continued, you see. And still there are few of course, not many.
Who was the link between the tenth Sikh guru and the later Sikhs?
I tell you. The tenth guru was Guru Gobind Singh ... The times were very disturbed when he was there. He left the scene. He did not die. He left the scene and remained there in seclusion for about 17 years. He took some of the people with Him ... some state people. Then He initiated one of them and told him to initiate other people of his family. In that family Tulsi came up ... Tulsi Sahib. Tulsi was a great saint.
Tulsi was not directly initiated by Gobind Singh then.
Through Him. There was one other person in between.
That person's name - Is it available?
At least I know; it is not in history.
Well, where did the rumor ever get started that Gobind Singh was the last?
These are the stories that come up. The times were disturbed. Many people asked Him what to do. He had to leave, go away. He said, "All right, what the scriptures say, do it." That was a sort of criterion. The scriptures say, "Go to the Master." His ideal was to raise people who are fully effulgent with light within them. Khalsa means he who is fully effulgent with light within. A Khalsa who has light within, only He can give an experience of light to others.
I would imagine that last year (1969) when You toured the Punjab You explained these things that you're now telling me to the Sikhs up there. How do they accept the idea that there has been a continuation?
They never object to my voicing that. I tell them "God is Light. The physical body in which He manifests is the Guru. He resides in every heart. Where God fully manifests we call him Saint. That's all." They cannot refute it.
But I mean are they happy about the idea that the line was continued?
The staunchest have been initiated. The staunchest Arya Samajis have been initiated. The staunchest Jains have been initiated. The staunchest Mohammedans have been initiated. Roman Catholics have been initiated.
Is it making a big change in the basic Sikh church?
Most are stuck fast like other religions - isms. They're stuck fast in "isms." That school is better where many students turn out successfully. What is the sign of success? They should see Light within.
So you're not trying to change the Sikh church really.
Well, you see these things are made with a very noble purpose. All "isms" are schools of thought. When men came to a Master Who had solved the mystery of life, knew themselves, knew God, those who came to Him also knew God. Later on when the Masters left the scene, these schools came into being. They are schools. So long as there are practical people, people were getting something. For want of practical people the same good old custom corrupts itself. Formations result in stagnation and stagnation results in deterioration. When a Master comes, He says, "Well, dear friend you have forgotten." He revives; no new things are given. Ever since this paid preaching has started in all religions, it has played havoc. They've not seen. Blind leads the blind. Both falling into the ditch.
Could religions be kept going if a number of Saints were sent to the world at the same time. Would that solve the problem?
Religions are stuck, congealed now.
I mean a number of Saints could uncongeal them.
They'd awaken some of them; not all
religions as a whole. They consider the performance of certain rites and
rituals as the end-all. This is what they have come to see. I'll give you
an example; who are you? You are soul, embodied soul. There is a Light
within you. There is the right way to know yourself. Now you are identified
with the body so much, so you cannot differentiate yourself. When you rise
above, you know. When you know, you see the Light. This is a fact. This
is the right way of progressing spiritually. But if you were lighting hundreds
of candles outside and praying, "God is Light, God is Light," would it
not appear very frivolous? Their chanting, their speakers, speaking in
high voices, hands up, standing on their toes, "Oh God, help them." Excuse
me, I am speaking very straight now.
The main thing is that you are soul. Have you analyzed yourself? Have you seen God? Compare the man who has done that with another man who for a hundred years has been lighting, putting candles in chapels, churches, mosques, or temples. So you compare that. In India there is a custom when the girls are about to be married. They learn all these rituals, etc., of the married people. But when they are married, they say all these things are forgotten.
The real spirituality is to know yourself. What did your Guru say? ...you're Jyoti. You are Light ... are you not? With your repetition of the names all these three lokas are within you; ... you transcend these three planes, lokas. Then you feel you and God are one. I and my Father are one; then you rise in it and transcend. These things are not explained fully, that's the pity.... You are Jyoti, you are light, but you are entangled in the worldly things. To really rise up above it and then say, that is something else. To simply say, "God is Light. I am not body. I am not this" - what will that do? And those who are stuck only in the performance of rituals on certain days consider that to be the be-all and end-all. Of course, that is the preparatory ground for preparation. But your ego is there. If you sow good, you'll reap good. So good and bad actions will result in good or bad because you are the doer. You'll come and go, come and go. You cannot get out of this wheel of life. But if you see that He is the doer, not you, then there is no coming and going. And that comes only when you sit at the feet of a Master and you see the Light within and hear the Sound.
When Kennedy died, I saw the funeral on television. What was the Archbishop doing? He was throwing wine. That intoxication is not the true intoxication, you see. Excuse me, I am just putting before you things in the right perspective. They think it is the end-all. Do you know that many bishops have been initiated?
Yes, I went to London on my first tour.
I said in my talk, "God does not reside in temples made with stone." One
Reverend stood up: "You have thrown an atom bomb on all our Churchianity."
The fact remains. God resides in the house which He Himself made, in this
body: Who is this body? It was made in the womb. Is there any machinery
there? God lives in the temple He has made. Not in the temple made with
stone by the hand of man. Now where does all this Churchianity and all
the isms go? Excuse me, if you're going, all right, go on, then rise above
it. It's a polite way of telling, when you rise above, these things will
leave you sure. They go. Masters come to fulfill, not to destroy. All right,
There are 700 or more religions. How can you change them? All have got their own ways of living brought about by climatic influences, their own customs, their own temperaments. But this is something clear to everybody. The same speech, the same lesson is given to everybody whether you are made in this form or that form, that makes no difference. But Masters say what they See and let others See too. Where do all these "isms" stand, with due deference? The basic teachings are the same. It is no new thing I'm telling you. Christ says, "I and my Father are one" ... "Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" ... "I am the Bread of Life." Didn't he say that? But now the teachings say Christ is the light of the whole world past and future.
One Christian came up to me and said, "Those who will believe in Christ will be saved, others will not." And then I put him a question, "Dear friend, that's right. Those who believe in Christ - Christ is a Power - all right, but of those who came before Him, what will be their fate?" The Christ name is there. That's all right. They may believe him but those who came before Him, what will be their fate? Well, they are stuck fast like anything. So this is the fate too of the people in all religions.
I think the Sikh Gurus made a very universal thing. First of all they put all the sayings of as many Masters as they could lay hands on in one book. Kabir is there, Namdev is there, Ravi Das is there. There are 72 Saints; spiritual sayings are there. No other religion has done that. They started a very universal thing, and yet they are also stuck fast. They have forgotten. The golden temple at Amritsar is the Sikh home. The stone was laid down by a Mohammedan, Mian Mir, at the request of Guru Arjan. They were all God-realized people. When you rise above all these isms and bodies you are one. To show that and the people worshiping those very scriptures are one, Guru Arjan chose as many Saints' sayings that He could lay hands on in the world. He united, put them all together (in the "Guru Granth Sahib"). Their gurus made mosques for the Mohammedans, temples for the Hindus - they are places of worship of God, that's all. Because the Truth is one. As time passes on, I tell you, people remain stuck to the casing at the cost of the kernel, that's all. This is Truth. And I think quite convincing to any awakened man - awakened man I would say.
Truly speaking, body is the temple of God. We reside in it and God also resides there. You see? The true temple is the body. Where God is manifest, Light is there. Outer temples, churches, mosques, were made out of the model of man. Now in all models there are similar symbols of Light and Sound. They are in the church, in the Sikh temples, in the Hindu temples and in the Mohammedan mosques, too. Now, if, God forbid, an atom bomb fell on the church - and all people said, "All Hindus are at fault." They would be ready to kill each other, other people. Well, if temples made by the hand of man are destroyed, we also destroy hundreds of "true" temples. Where's the wisdom in it? Tell me?
So we respect the outer temples because they have symbols of God; there people sit together, pray to God. That's all right. But which is better: all of the temples, the churches, the mosques or the man temple where those symbols are manifest? Won't you say that? You'll say that, of course, won't you?
The body is more valuable. The Saint
is in him. He is manifest. The others are only kept as symbols for remembrance.
This is the Truth. Will any Christian or Hindu or Sikh follow it? Let there
not be any misapprehension, misunderstanding, we have respect for all places
of worship which were made after the model of man body. And therein we
have symbols of Light and Sound. People sit together, pray to God. We have
love for them. But truth is that churches are made after the model of man,
the true temple of God. And he who has realized it here - in the man-body
- he does not break the heart of others, you see, he does not molest, does
not in any way do something which may hurt others' feelings. He says, "All
right. Temples are good, but the true temple is here." (Master points to